Entrevista

El 30 de septiembre de 2011, a raíz de la encuesta sobre ajiacos ideales (cuyos resultados todavía me comprometo a publicar algún día, mientras tanto contribuyan, el formulario sigue abierto) me entrevistaron en Radio Nacional de Colombia sobre el ajiaco, su historia y sus costumbres. Esta es la transcripción de la entrevista, un favor que me hizo Paola Vargas.

Juan Pablo Calvás — El verdadero nombre del Juglar del Zipa es Miguel Olaya y está con nosotros a esta hora para hablar del ajiaco porque resulta, Deisa [Rayo], que este hombre es un investigador del ajiaco. Es lo que llamaríamos un ajiacólogo, un experto en ajiacos.

Andrés Amador — O sea que me va a regañar.

JPC — Pues cuando le contemos que usted le echa arracacha, arvejas, zanahoria y costilla de res a su ajiaco le va a dar un colapso nervioso. Y que el color es rojo.

AA — ¿Así dije yo?

JPC — No. Lo del color no, pero lo de la arveja, la arracacha y zanahoria, sí. Miguel Olaya, buenos días. Bienvenido a Radio Nacional.

Miguel Olaya — Buenos días. ¿Cómo están?

JPC — Bueno, señor, hablemos del ajiaco. Primero que todo, ¿por qué razón hace usted una encuesta sobre el ajiaco ideal?

MO — Porque yo quiero entender cuál es la diferencia de criterios de la gente. La gente se imagina algo cuando piensa en ajiaco pero estas ideas son muy diferentes entre sí y cada uno cree que es una válida. Yo personalmente creo que tiene que ser así porque además hay muchas variantes del ajiaco. Pero quería tener la certeza. (Bueno, con esta encuesta no voy a tener la certeza, solamente una idea de qué es lo que la gente está pensando.) Y, en particular, porque quiero saber dónde está mi versión del ajiaco dentro de todas esas ideas.

JPC — Claro, pero entonces usted está haciendo como… algo parecido a lo que pasaba en un concurso de televisión hace un tiempo, Cien colombianos dicen. Entonces, lo que diga la gente. ¿Pero eso puede llevar a la receta original, a la receta del ajiaco ciento por ciento ajiaco?

MO — El problema de eso es que no hay una receta original o única de ajiaco porque ajiaco es una palabra genérica que es equivalente a sancocho. Ajiaco es cualquier sopa con tubérculos y carnes. Incluso hay versiones con plátano.

JPC — ¿Pero cómo así? ¿Y entonces en qué momento se convierte en lo que conocemos? ¿O por qué razón nosotros tenemos una asociación directa a ajiaco hacia esa sopa pero en realidad es un sancocho?

MO — Porque en algún momento una de estas versiones, de estas variantes de ajiaco, se vuelve la versión establecida. Eso toca ver cómo se fue generando. Lo que sí podemos decir es que la primera referencia a un ajiaco parecido a lo que probablemente todos tenemos en mente cuando pensamos en ajiaco solamente aparece en un libro de recetas llamado Manual práctico de cocina para la ciudad y el campo, que es de 1923, o sea que es bastante reciente. E incluso esa versión tiene un aspecto raro y es que dice que hay que espesarlo con calados, como una changua. Pero la que más, más se parece —o sea, una sopa de papa con pollo y alcaparras, por definirlo así— aparece en 1937. O sea que es una versión al parecer muy reciente. Quien sabe en qué momento apareció el primer ajiaco parecido al que usualmente conseguimos, pero esto es la primera pista que tenemos, digamos, la que queda consagrada en un libro, como una versión oficial.

Deisa Rayo — Quería preguntarle si usted tiene, de pronto, una medición más bien por lo rico. Es decir, finalmente la comida se califica es por el sabor. Entonces, dentro de esa receta, ¿cuál es el ajiaco más rico, el que tiene qué ingredientes? De pronto usted no ha hecho esa medición por ese lado y no por la originalidad o por, no sé, o por la creatividad.

MO — Eso sería otro tipo de investigación, otro tipo de preguntas. En la encuesta yo incluí la pregunta sobre cuál es su paradigma de ajiaco y supongo que con esa pregunta también estoy resolviendo cuál es el que le parece más rico.

JP — Pero pues es que aquí todos dijimos “mi mamá”. Yo no sé. Manuel, ¿el suyo es el de su mamá?

AA — Es una referencia.

Manuel Arias — Es el de mi mamá, sí.

JP — Claro, pues es que el mejor ajiaco es el de la mamá de uno.

MO — Sí, mucha gente ha dicho eso. Y yo puedo decir que el ajiaco que yo hago es una versión modificada de la que me dio mi mamá por lo mismo, porque me parecía muy bueno. Aunque haya otros referentes. Pero volviendo a esto, también preguntando qué es lo que uno espera que vaya en el plato se puede entender qué tipo de sabores se van a parecer más a eso rico que uno tiene en mente. Por eso hablo de ajiaco ideal. Y los ingredientes, los sabores que predominan, la textura, todo eso es lo que le da forma al ajiaco rico. Pero ya tocaría buscar todos los ajiacos, todos los posibles ajiacos reales, y no estos ajiacos teóricos, y ponerse a calificar con algún criterio. A mí eso me parece realmente muy difícil.

AA — Claro, muy subjetivo.

MO — También porque lo que a uno le parece rico a otra persona no.

AA — ¿Es decir que mi ajiaco, el sancocho trifásico con todos los juguetes, es como el abuelito del ajiaco?

JPC — Sí, le está hablando Andrés Amador el que le echa arracacha, arvejas y zanahoria al ajiaco.

AA — No, no. En mi casa le echaban eso. Yo ni siquiera el huevo lo sé hacer.

MO — No sé si sea un abuelito porque además hay todas estas versiones que coexisten.

AA — El eslabón perdido, tal vez.

MO — Pues lo que le puedo decir es que en la versión del siglo XVI, en unas crónicas de conquista, hablan de echarle carne de venado y carne de chivo, plátano, yuca. O sea, nada que se le parezca al ajiaco actual. Actualmente hay unas cinco variantes que combinan cuatro ingredientes básicos. Entonces estas versiones son: solo papa; papa, arracacha, zanahoria y arveja; papa, arracacha y zanahoria; papa, arracacha y arveja; y papa y arveja.

AA — Miguel, ¿se puede hablar de que el ajiaco, como muchos platos en cada región, adoptó las costumbres, la culinaria y los productos de la zona? O sea, hay ajiaco bogotano, el tradicional, el que aparentemente conocemos, ¿pero también habría ajiaco en el Tolima, ajiaco en la costa, ajiaco en cualquier región del país?

MO — Sí. Existen recetas de ajiacos boyacense, cartagenero, tolimense y santanderano. Todos tienen en común, como ya dije, que son una sopa de alguna carne con algún tubérculo, una cocción húmeda de esos ingredientes. Ahí las preguntas que hay que hacerse es cómo se fueron definiendo, cómo se usaron esos ingredientes, es decir, cuál es la razón de usarlos. Y en concreto el ajiaco en su variante bogotana o santafereña usa ingredientes que en algún momento fueron bastante caros, pues el pollo, la crema de leche y las alcaparras son exquisiteces. Pero hoy uno sabe que si lleva en la bolsa del mercado todos estos ingredientes es porque va a hacer ajiaco. Lo otro es el uso de guascas, que es una hierba que ataca a los cultivos, es una maleza, pero únicamente se usa para hacer el ajiaco. Y otro aspecto que hay que tener en cuenta es que se usan las tres variedades de papa que se encuentran en el mercado. Se consiguen unas cinco variedades, aunque hay infinitas variedades de papa. Pero en este diálogo entre la producción de ajiaco, y otros productos que usen papa, y el mercado, se definen el uno al otro. Entonces solamente encuentro las papas que me sirven para el ajiaco y solamente puedo hacer ajiaco con las papas que consigo en el mercado.

JP — A ver, Miguel Olaya, también conocido como @juglardelzipa en Twitter: yo ahora quiero resolver una duda gigantesca que me llega a la mente en medio de esta conversación y es por qué razón usted quiere desentrañar los misterios del ajiaco. ¿Hay detrás de esto un interés académico? ¿Usted está preparando una tesis doctoral sobre el ajiaco o el sancocho en Santa Fe desde la conquista a nuestros días? ¿Por qué razón querer descubrir la realidad detrás del ajiaco?

MO — Porque me encanta. Siempre me ha gustado el ajiaco. No tengo ningún interés académico o al menos no lo estoy haciendo dentro de una investigación académica. Tal vez puede ser mi deformación profesional porque estudie historia y siempre tiendo a orientar mis inquietudes por ese lado. Pero es más bien porque yo quiero hacer un ajiaco mejor y he estado perfeccionando y buscando elementos para mejorar eso, para, digamos, complacer al público del ajiaco.

MA — Miguel, dentro de esta receta que usted está preparando y que quiere hacer el mejor ajiaco, una duda que me sale a mí es, dentro de las preguntas que hacia Juan Pablo, si el pollo va desmechado o entero.

DR — Sí, eso es fundamental.

MA — Porque uno lo ve en distintas presentaciones y uno no sabe cuál es la correcta.

DR — Yo, entero.

JPC — Yo soy honesto. A mí me llega a salir una presa entera como en el ajiaco de la casa de Deisa y yo simplemente no como. Me retiro. Es más, Deisa, nunca me invite a su casa a comer ajiaco. Jamás.

DR — Es que se sirve diferente. Porque normalmente esa presa de pollo iría al lado.

JPC — No, horrible. No justifique. A mí eso me parece una canallada.

MA — Entonces, ¿cuál es la correcta dentro de lo que usted ha investigado, Miguel?

MO — Yo puedo decir que a mí me gusta desmechado en pedazos grandes.

JPC — Muy bien, es usted un gran ajiacólogo.

MA — ¿Pero qué indica la historia que usted ha averiguado?

MO — Dependiendo de la versión uno encuentra que las presas se cocinan junto con las papas o que se usan únicamente los cuartos traseros del pollo, o sea las patas —los perniles, que llaman— y no la pechuga. Y tiene sentido porque los perniles son más sabrosos que la pechuga. Pero si uno quiere comerse una parte más delicada entonces se come la pechuga. Y todo eso depende de cómo se quiere comer uno las cosas que va a hacer. Y, de nuevo, es la idea de ajiaco, o la idea del plato que se nos ocurra, y lo que finalmente nos sirven lo que va a definir esa diferencia entre si me gustó o no me gustó. O si esto sí es un ajiaco o es otra cosa con un nombre que no se merece.

JPC — Pero eso no quita, Miguel, que el ajiaco de la casa de Deisa sea horrible por el solo hecho de que le sirvan a uno la pierna entera.

DR — Hágame un favor. Es como si usted se toma un caldo de costilla con la costilla desmenuzada. ¡El caldo de costilla es con la costilla ahí!

JPC — ¡Ay, Deisa! ¡Cómo compara eso! ¡Me le apagan el micrófono a Deisa!

DR — ¿Ah no? Ya. Con esta comparación cierro la discusión. Tiene que ir la presa adentro.

JPC — Venga, Miguel, ¿usted en medio de esta investigación se ha encontrado con que existe una ortodoxia del ajiaco, que existe como un grupo de gente como, prácticamente, el facismo del ajiaco?

MA — La logia.

MO — Sí. Sí porque hay mucha gente que rechazará versiones que difieran o que se distancien mucho de esta, digamos, versión canónica. Sobre lo que hay que llamar la atención aquí es que hay muchas versiones de ajiaco, o sea, de idea de ajiaco, incluso de la variante santafereña como ya dije. Entonces ahí hay que hacerse preguntas sobre cómo se estableció una versión, cómo predomino una versión sobre otras y en qué lugares predomina más una cosa y si eso está ligado a una idea de clase social o de origen geográfico. Esas serían preguntas interesantes, en las que habría que avanzar si esto fuera una investigación científica y sistemáticamente realizada. Esta encuesta —no es una encuesta, es solamente un sondeo— es para darme una idea, puede ser un punto de partida para algo.

JPC — Venga, Miguel. Me cuentan internamente una cosa, ¿qué sus ajiacos son famosísimos?

MO — Los promociono mucho en Twitter y entre mis amigos más cercanos.

JPC — ¿Y usted hace reuniones de ajiaco? Gira todo en torno a un plato.

MO — En general hago reuniones con comida; yo soy cocinero también. Entonces me gusta cocinar para compartir con amigos o para conocer gente. Y uno de los platos que más hago es el ajiaco. Y alguna vez que estuve desempleado vendí ajiacos en mi casa con un esquema de marca y mercadeo y así hice famoso mi ajiaco en Twitter, que era mi principal fuente de clientes.

JPC — Pues revisemos rápidamente Twitter antes de despedirlo, Miguel. @CristinaVelezV dice: “mi tia elegantísima que vivía en Nueva York cogía las guascas para el ajiaco del separador de Park Avenue”. Por lo que usted decía, porque es una maleza, ¿no?

MO — Sí. La guasca se consigue en las jardineras de los andenes. Siempre dicen que es lo más difícil de conseguir pero si uno se pone juicioso en otro país, las encuentra. Y tiene nombre raros. En Argentina se llama albahaca silvestre y en inglés es gallant soldier.

JPC — @elpalabrista dice que yo represento el fundamentalismo del ajiaco. No: es que el ajiaco es como es y punto. Don Miguel Olaya, muchas gracias por estos minutos. Algún día lo invitaré a comer ajiaco donde mi mamá, que es el mejor del planeta.

MO — Muy bien. Muchas gracias. Además me dijo que era una versión de un ajiaco muy famoso, que es el del restaurante Mora.

JP — Bueno. Pero eso es lo que usted y yo hablamos internamente. Los oyentes no sabían eso. Pero sí, esa es la versión. Don miguel, gracias, chao.

MO — Gracias a ustedes.

JPC — Que prepare rico ajiaco.

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