Señal que cabalgamos*
La palabra «horror» fue usada por el lector de nombre Libardo, de Manizales, y después por Soledad Moliner hoy en Lecturas fin de semana para referirse a la dequefobia. Y horror fue lo que me causó leer que, según esta señora, decir «estar seguro que» no es ningún crimen —aunque igual le moleste— porque Cervantes y otros clásicos lo usaron alguna vez.
¡Y qué importa! ¡Esa dequefobia no tiene ningún sentido lógico ni gramatical! Es un mero error chimbo que se legitimó a manera de modismo por algún tipo de absurda jurisprudencia.
Ese es el peligro de sustentar las cosas en la autoridad en vez de enfrentarla cuando se equivoca. Resulta pecado decir que cuando Cervantes prescindía de esa importante y necesaria preposición la estaba embarrando. No, no, no, es que era Cervantes, era Dios. «¿Usted sabe quién es ese tipo? ¿Sabe con quién se está metiendo? Mejor coma callado, hermano, que le va mal.» ¿Y más adelante cuando la autoridad no sea Cervantes sino Carlos Antonio Vélez o Alejandra Azcárate o Alberto Carrasquilla o Andrés Pastrana o el que le haga las letras a Juanes? ¡Qué va! Ellos ya son la autoridad, los que le ponen de ejemplo a uno cuando corrige.
*Señal que cabalgamos es el título de una serie de folletos que publica la Faultad de Ciencias Humanas de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. El título se basa en el famoso supuesto pasaje de El Quijote en el que el ingenioso hidalgo le dice a Sancho Panza «Ladran, luego cabalgamos». A algún ingenioso hidalgo de la dicha facultad le dio por parafraser acudiendo a la dequefobia. Por eso parece que están cabalgando un semáforo. Lo correcto habría sido decir «señal de que cabalgamos», pero parece ser fácilmentemercadotecnificable.
12 de November, 2005 - 10:54
¿Alejandra Azcàrate? Jajajajaja
Si esa es màs ordinaria que una ancheta con condones.
El día en que esa vieja sea la autoridad voy a encontrarme con un torero negro que de noche sea mariachi negro y se case con una koreana para que tengan koreanitos ¡negros y de pelo chuto!
¡Ah!… calvazo para ‘El pollo’ Vélez
Por cierto Juglar, ¿lo del ‘cóctel’ y ‘coctel’ si será cierto?
“…Ud. que desde pequeño descubrió ‘ de que’ el alcohol no solo servía para curar heridas…”
12 de November, 2005 - 10:59
A menos que uno crea en la existencia de una especie de “perfeccion platonica” del espan~ol, ese tipo de cuestiones *solo* puede resolverse por medio de argumentos “de autoridad”:
* La autoridad de la Real Academia de la Lengua
* La autoridad de la mayoria
* La autoridad de tales o cuales autores
etc, etc. No veo de que otra manera pueda ser, excepto como dije, si uno cree ingenuamente en una especie de modelo ideal del espan~ol o algo asi.
12 de November, 2005 - 11:41
Lo que dice Sergio es cierto solo hasta cierto punto. La autoridad de la RAE si puede *resolver* este tipo de entuertos, pero solo en un ambito académico y aún así, hay que recordar que la autoridad de la RAE es la autoridad de la mayoria, pues esos venerables ancianos que se sientan en una antiquisima biblioteca a escribir con pluma en un gigantesco libro (si no es así no quiero enterarme como es, oyo Juglar?) no hacen sino consignar el habla popular.
La autoridad de tales o cuales autores solo resuelve algo si ellos son autores de libros sobre gramática, porque los autores literarios no tienen porque ser expertos en español correcto (o cualquier otra lengua). Adémas de lo fácil que les queda justificar cualquier metia de pata llamandola una “libertad poética” o con decir que buscaban “representar una forma determinada de habla coloquial”
En lo que a un idioma se refiere, la unica autoridad que vale es la de cómo percibe la mayoria de hablantes que se debe hablar. Ojo, que digo como creen que se debe hablar, no como hablan, porque si mucha gente habla mal, y sabe que está hablando mal, entonces no van a cambiar el idioma.
Y hasta donde yo sé, la gram mayoria estamos de acuerdo de que hablar con el tal dequesimo del que habla el Juglar no es correcto. Aunque lo usemos a diario, porque estoy seguro de que a todos se nos ha salido de vez en cuando. De que eso es cierto, es cierto.
12 de November, 2005 - 13:48
sergio:
El problema en estos casos no es que deba existir un modelo platónico de español (protoibérico > latín > protolatín > indoeuropeo > nostrático > lengua adánica) sino que, aun sabiendo que lo de Cervantes -o cualquiera que sea dequefóbico- no tenía sentido, lo citen para decir “entonces sí se puede usar”. No. El man la estaba embarrando y ya.
Por ejemplo, me sorprendió que en España el verbo informar se use de manera distinta que aquí: “Telefónica le informa de que el número marcado…”. Nos suena feo, pero tiene sentido gramaticalmente: funciona como el verbo acordar y no como recordar, que es como lo usamos nosotros. En cambio, dentro de las reglas de la gramática del español (que no bajaron del cielo sino que son fruto de la evolución del idioma), no se puede justificar el “estoy seguro que”, como sí se puede justificar el “estoy seguro de que” y no tener que acudir a las autoridades que, como dice Arkaham, se equivocan: el “que galicado” lo usan por cantidades en todo lado, aparece escrito en muchos lugares y hablado en más y la única manera de justificarlo sería diciendo “porque sí”.
Por la vía “uso popular” en España también resultó bien visto el leísmo y eso tampoco tiene ningún sentido desde el punto de vista gramatical. Pero es que, claro, suena más elegante, más cortés, más quién sabe qué decir “no le conozco” en vez de “no lo conozco”. También se han inventado su propia interpretación de la gramática para justificar el “perfecto” (”he desayunado” en vez de “desayuné” pero que en realidad significa “acabé de desayunar”) con el sentido que solo usan en España y que en realidad fue, originalmente, un galicismo, una moda. Como es moda la dequefobia porque resulta que cualquier “de que” es de mal gusto, huys, fo.
Podría resultar contradictorio lo que dije en el paréntesis del segundo párrafo porque sé que los idiomas están en constante cambio, pero el idioma es lo único en lo que soy facho y estoy convencido de que todo lo que se quiera decir puede decirse dentro de las aparentemente lógicas reglas que tiene.
Arkaham:
Querrá decir que no quiere enterarse DE cómo es que escriben los libros en la RAE.
12 de November, 2005 - 16:23
Yo creo que el idioma lo hacen quienes lo hablan, así que establecer una serie de reglas inflexibles en realidad empobrece la evolución de si mismo, es necesario establecer una base pero no que esta se convierta en una herramienta de exclusión social.
12 de November, 2005 - 16:37
Fucó:
Pues ciertamente la mayoría de quienes defienden la gramática del español no tienen como lengua materna un idioma diferente. Cualquier cosa que se salga de esas reglas va a seguir siendo inteligible, por eso el idioma evoluciona… pero…
12 de November, 2005 - 16:59
Es increible leer que alguien escribió que el idioma lo hacen los que lo hablan, y debo declararme totalmente en contra de tal afirmación…, el idioma tiene unas reglas que han sido determinadas y no precisamente por nosotros… si fuera así cada cual hablaría su propio lengua y no español, o la lengua que sea.
12 de November, 2005 - 20:39
Yo creo de que no deban de ser tan sapos
13 de November, 2005 - 00:46
Debe haber un balance entre las reglas establecidas y la evolución empírica del lenguaje. A mí me choca el uso de los verbos en el dialecto Argentino pero censurarlos sería atacar la idiosincracia de un pueblo que le ha dado mucho a la lengua Española.
El español tiene la gran ventaja de tener un cuerpo oficial que dicta las reglas del lenguaje, a diferencia de otras lenguas que se dan silvestres y cambian sin Dios ni ley como el inglés. En mi opinión deberíamos regirnos por lo que dicta la academia pero sin olvidar que ésta no siempre es infalible y a menudo cae en ciertas arbitrariedades influenciadas por la fortaleza de ciertas academias nacionales (la Española), que desafían el sentido común.
Con este último comentario me refiero a algunos ejemplos de el recientemente publicado Diccionario Panhispánico de Dudas que fueron reseñados en el diario El Tiempo del día de ayer. Esta publicación desecha palabras como “email” y admite barbarismos tales como “cáterin” (de catering) y “yóquei” (de jockey).
13 de November, 2005 - 02:38
Zipa, aunque no se casi nada del tema, creo que el hecho de que el lenguaje cambie continuamente es precisamente la muestra de que las reglas no son tan logicas como nos gustaria creer, sino que corresponden simplemente a consensos temporales.
La nocion de lo que es correcto en un lenguaje es circular: la gramatica de una lengua es decidida por los que la hablan. No creo que la expresion “tener sentido gramaticalmente” tenga valor.
13 de November, 2005 - 07:02
La reglas no son lógicas, tiene razón Sergio. La manera como se decide si algo es válido o nó es por medio del corpus lingüístico. Toca decidir qué textos están bien y atenerse. Eso de que Cervantes estaba errado es un disparate, como si hubiera una razón lógica para que “seguro de qué” fuera preferible a “seguro que”. No la hay, de algo nos tenemos que tener, ese criterio funciona bien.
13 de November, 2005 - 13:07
sergio:
La gramática no “se decide” porque cambia inconscientemente, no está dirigida. Pero se puede “descubrir” su “lógica” y protegerla. Lo que uno hace cuando aprende un idioma es aprender consciente o inconscientemente un conjunto de reglas, una forma de darle SENTIDO GRAMATICAL a una cantidad de articulaciones fónicas más o menos arbitrarias.
El sentido gramatical tiene tanta importancia que incluso cuando la gente la embarra, justifica sus errores intentando pegarse a explicaciones gramaticales: “se dice ‘habían dos mesas’ porque son varias mesas y la ‘n’ siempre se usa en plural”. Eso es un ejemplo bastante común que tengo que oír a cada rato y por sí solo puede ser muy convincente, pero en el conjunto del idioma español, no.
j.:
La lógica no existe como se supone que existe (es “natural”) porque también es un lenguaje. La preposición “de” tiene un uso específico en español y en este caso nos referimos a las acepciones 6 y 7 que ofrece el diccionario.
Usted me está dando la razón con un error tipográfico. Mire estos dos ejemplos:
-Está seguro.
-¿De qué?
-De que Cervantes se equivocó.
-Está seguro.
-¿Qué?
-El carro. Ya le puse llave.
Igual esos errores y VERDADEROS DISPARATES pueden seguir y seguir hasta que algún día la gente se acostumbra y la RAE decide que todo bien. Pero como la RAE toma en cuenta a las autoridades y las autoridades también la embarran… En resumen: “si Cervantes se tira de una ventana, ¿usted también?”
13 de November, 2005 - 14:44
Pues Miguel, no, yo no me tiro, pero si Cervantes decía “Seguro que” eso puede perfectamente significar que en esa época era una expresión usada. Si lo decía con regularidad, definitivamente es una razón para dudar. Contra eso no se discute, no se hacen ejemplos como los que usted hace, no hay una “naturalidad” en el español que nos permita dirimir esas cuestiones en base a argumentos. Su ejemplo basado en la pregunta es el que pone todo el mundo, pero ese ejemplo presume que hay unas reglas que brindan una concordancia general al idioma, eso no sucede. El asunto no es si la RAE decide o no. El asunto es que el único medio que tenemos para uniformizar el idioma es decidir cuales son los documentos que representan el uso del idioma. Cualquier compilado que usted conciba contiene el Quijote, así se deciden las cosas, si suficiente número de textos del corpus coinciden, eso le da caracter de válido. Tal vez el problema de Moliner es que su respuesta es escueta, miremos el corpus. Busqué primero en el actual el uso de “estoy seguro que”, encontré 320 casos en 266 documentos. En el corpus histórico, por su parte, aparecen 146 casos en 99 documentos. Échele un ojo a los ejemplos.
Su error, Miguel, es suponer que los idiomas son dominados por sus reglas. Por eso es que existen las excepciones, porque los idiomas, afortunadamente, no son regulares ni naturales, tienen algo de eso, sí, pero en general se rehusan a ser dominados. El único en el que argumentos como los suyos funcionan es el esperanto, porque fue diseñado para funcionar de esa manera. Cualquier otro se va a negar a ser tratado así.
13 de November, 2005 - 14:58
Ack, el enlace que puse no funciona, le toca buscar a usted mismo. Vaya a http://corpus.rae.es/creanet.html para revisar el corpus de referencia actual y vaya a http://corpus.rae.es/cordenet.html para revisar el histórico. Es medio fácil de manejar, una vez uno entiende la terminología, y divertido de navegar. Buen viaje.
14 de November, 2005 - 00:15
j.:
1. De acuerdo. Estas diferencias no son algo que pueda defenderse con argumentos lógicos (silogismos, etc.). Pero sí se puede demostrar que una lengua sigue unos parámetros, a los que se llama gramática (ver 3.). Por eso mismo el ejemplo tiene mucha más fuerza argumental que “es que eso suena muy guiso”. Con un ejemplo así usted no puede demostrar que sea correcto desde el punto de vista gramatical decir “estoy seguro que”.
2. De acuerdo. Podemos citar todos los ejemplos del mundo para guiarnos. Pero habría que interponer dos objeciones:
A. Los médicos también se mueren. Incluso en el corpus vamos a encontrar cantidades de gazapos, errores gramaticales y semánticos. De hecho si uno busca en él, salen los siguientes gazapos frecuentes (de hecho usted tiene unos de ellos en su primer comentario):
- “por eso es que”: 43 caso en 25 documentos en el histórico; 183 casos en 153 documentos en el actual
- “es por eso que”: 38 casos en 27 documentos en el histórico; 183 casos en 157 documentos en el actual
- “en base a”: 154 casos en 26 documentos en el histórico; 1959 casos en 1220 documentos en el actual
- “se los digo”: 6 casos en 6 documentos en el histórico; 15 casos en 13 documentos en el actual.
- Ñapa: si uno pone “tal y como” dice “demasiados documentos” en ambos casos, por lo que habría que decir que esto ya clasificó como modismo porque ese “y” no es más que un simpático adorno.
B. Si se busca en el corpus -gracias por el dato- gana siempre “estar seguro de que” en cualquiera de sus conjugaciones (CREA, el español actual y CORDE, el español histórico):
ESTAR SEGURO DE QUE
CREA
169 casos en 142 documentos
CORDE
97 casos en 86 documentos
———–
ESTAR SEGURO QUE
CREA
23 casos en 22 documentos
CORDE
31 casos en 30 documentos
———-
ESTOY SEGURO DE QUE
CREA
613 casos en 451 documentos
CORDE
289 casos en 196 documentos
———-
ESTOY SEGURO QUE
CREA
321 casos en 266 documentos
CORDE
146 casos en 99 documentos
———–
ESTÁS SEGURO DE QUE
CREA
34 casos en 31 documentos
CORDE
11 casos en 11 documentos
———–
ESTÁS SEGURO QUE
CREA
6 casos en 6 documentos
CORDE
4 casos en 4 documentos
———–
ESTÁ SEGURO DE QUE
CREA
123 casos en 114 documentos
CORDE
48 casos en 44 documentos
———–
ESTÁ SEGURO QUE
CREA
34 casos en 34 documentos
CORDE
17 casos en 17 documentos
———–
ESTAMOS SEGUROS DE QUE
CREA
126 casos en 115 documentos
CORDE
32 casos en 30 documentos
———–
ESTAMOS SEGUROS QUE
CREA
0 casos en 0 documentos
CORDE
21 casos en 21 documentos
———–
ESTÁIS SEGUROS DE QUE
CREA
4 casos en 4 documentos
CORDE
1 caso en 1 documento
———–
ESTÁIS SEGUROS QUE
CREA
o casos en 0 documentos
CORDE
0 casos en 0 documentos
———–
ESTÁN SEGUROS DE QUE
CREA
58 casos en 58 documentos
CORDE
10 casos en 10 documentos
———–
ESTÁN SEGUROS QUE
CREA
6 casos en 6 documentos
CORDE
6 casos en 6 documentos
3. En desacuerdo: Sí hay unas reglas generales que rigen todo el idioma y hacen que tenga concordancia (no lo presumo, lo sostengo), ya lo dije. Pero incluso voy a ser más radical: el idioma es sus reglas y por eso mismo se puede decir que hablamos un idioma, que tenemos un idioma en común y que puedo entender lo que usted dice. Todos podríamos inventarnos nuestras propias reglas a ver si un buen día nos entienden. ¿Recuerda la propoganda de revista Luna? Ahí las niñas hablaban su propio idioma. Me parece que usted confunde que haya excepciones a las reglas con que no existan reglas en absoluto.
14 de November, 2005 - 02:28
Creo que hay una confusion en la discusion. Claro que hay unas reglas generales que definen lo que es la gramatica, finalmente ahi estan escritas. Lo que no hay, y creo que Zipa cree que si, es una consistencia total, o una logica que rige esas reglas. Hay una cierta consistencia en algunas partes, pero es mucho mas debil de lo que la intuicion nos hace creer.
14 de November, 2005 - 05:16
Exacto. Yo no estoy diciendo que las reglas no existan, lo que digo es que las reglas no siguen ninguna coherencia, que no se pueda concluir que ciertas cosas son correctas o falsas yendo de lo general a lo particular, porque cuarenta ejemplos no me garantizan que el número cuarenta y uno va a funcionar también. Las reglas son arbitrarias y la posibilidad de escribir “estoy seguro que” puede ser perfectamente contemplada por las reglas sin con ello violar la sacra dignidad del idioma. Por eso es que usted no puede decir que las regularidades defienden su punto. Nada la defiende, la elección es arbitraria. Algún hispanista podría decir que el “de” de “estoy seguro de que” se perdió en algún proceso raro de economía de palabras o fonemas (el “de” se volvió “innecesario”, por ejemplo), eso pasa. Esas razones -las que impone el uso- usualmente terminan siendo mucho más pesadas que las reglas impuestas.
El asunto es que en español las reglas las decide una institución que intenta que el castellano -este idioma magno para hablar con dios- funcione un poquito como el esperanto. En el inglés eso no pasa. La corrección en inglés se vuelve una cosa más vaga y es basada en consenso. Podríamos, si queremos, mandar al carajo a la RAE pero entonces la única manera de decidir si algo es correcto o no que nos quedaría sería mirar cómo habla la gente y adoptar lo que gane uso. Eso sería peor, creo. Ahí si que nos llenaríamos de sus odiados “deques” y quién sabe cuántas vainas más.
14 de November, 2005 - 08:02
De acuerdo con el comment de j.. Creo que resume muy bien la posicion que comparto.
14 de November, 2005 - 13:35
j.:
La “regla”, la forma como funciona el idioma, se decanta después de años de evolución del idioma: la gramática no es arbitraria, como sí es la ortografía (i. e. cuando la gente habla casi no -o nunca- tiene que pensar cómo dice las cosas, como sí tiene que hacerlo para escribir con los signos correctos). Pero los gramáticos encuentran esas sorprendentes regularidades mirando lo particular, lo general, el conjunto, lo convencional, etc. Las encuentran mirando, como usted dice, no imponiendo nada ni oyendo la voz de ningún dios. Dentro de esas sorprendentes regularidades el “estar seguro que” no tiene lugar (no lo demuestro mostrando ejemplos de corpus -no buscaba demostrarle nada científicamente así que tampoco es válido que me saque el argumento de Hume en esta situación- sino con lo de las preguntas que a usted no le dicen nada) porque es un vicio. Los vicios también se extienden, también se vuelven convencionales y por eso tienen que aceptar que es válido, ahí sí arbitrariamente. Y resignadamente.
No sé si usted intenta caricaturizarme con expresiones como “sacra dignidad del idioma” o “magna lengua para hablar con dios”. A mí me parece que tener un idioma sí es un ejercicio de dignidad, pero tampoco creo que sea sacra o exclusiva para hablar con dios porque, aparte de que esoy ateo, no soy franquista ni tradicionista. Que viva la diversidad en el idioma, que vivan los dialectos, las palabras prestadas y los acentos porque qué pereza tener un español hegemónico. Pero que también viva la conciencia del idioma propio, que viva la permanencia de ese único objeto de identidad, eso que nos da la gramática. Pero tolerando cosas así no se está defendiendo nada, solo casos particulares de ignorancia y esnobismo.
sergio:
Juglar. Soy el juglar, por favor.
14 de November, 2005 - 14:00
No, Miguel, no me burlaba de usted, me burlaba del castellano y la dignidad que supura. Creo que es Borges el que dice por ahí que hubo un rey de España que decidió -por decreto- que el castellano debía ser un lenguaje para hablar con dios. Desafortunadamente lo logró, complementa Borges.
14 de November, 2005 - 15:37
Pues yo creo que la libertad sólo está permitida para crear nuevo vocabulario pero no para alterar la forma de la gramática. El vocabulario es en esencia lo que nace de la experiencia cotidiana local, pero debe ser adaptado a las reglas gramaticales y ortográficas del idioma, y lo mismo debe aplicarse para los anglicismos una vez que surgen.
Por cierto, ¿qué opinan de la nueva tendencia de algunos paleontólogos hispanoamericanos que están dando sus nombres a las especies que descubren? Creo que Tiranosaurus Rex suena muy elegante para un despellejador de mastodontes, pero un Buitrerraptor Gonzalezorum me suena más a que un sacerdote ortodoxo se encabronó con Luisito González por considerarlo rapaz y oportunista.
14 de November, 2005 - 16:54
j.:
No sé si eso haya dicho Borges. Pero sé que se le atribuye esa estúpida lambonería a Carlos V que dijo algo como que el italiano era para hablar con las damas, el aleman con los soldados, el checo con los gansos y el español con dios.
El español es para comunicarse con los demás, para hablarlo y escribirlo bien. Eso se lo merece cualquier idioma.
14 de November, 2005 - 20:56
Buenas… Hay una cosa que discuto con todo el mundo y es si vale la pena discutir, de modo que cuando no se está de acuerdo es mejor oír los argumentos ajenos y replicar: “Pues chévere”. Es lo que pasa si alguien dice que las lenguas no tienen un aparato lógico, que se fueron formando y van cambiando y dentro de cien años estará bien “señal que cabalgamos”. ¡Que yo me bajo, ya he cabalgado de todo, señales, ni por el de Aguadas! Precisamente lo que se ha formado es ese aparato lógico y muchas cosas imprecisas y torpes son sólo fósiles de cuando ese aparato estaba en formación. Tanto es así que en Castilla, donde nació el español, tal vez la mayoría de la gente dice “La dije que me respetara”, mientras que en Andalucía, en Canarias, en toda América, “tierra conquistada”, a nadie se le ocurriría decir eso. En fin: pues chévere.
Y por tal motivo me llaman la atención cosas que dice uno con el que sí estoy de acuerdo en lo de ese aparato lógico: Monsieur le Amphitryon. Por ejemplo el verbo “informar”. El que quiera usarlo como en España queda como un pedante o como un idiota, pero no podría estar respondiendo al aparato lógico del que hablaba, pues el “de” está en cualquier uso del verbo, no se dice “Infórmame tus intenciones” (en cambio sí se diría “comunícame tus intenciones”). Pero eso es mejor saberlo y no aplicarlo para no resultar penosamente excéntrico.
Respecto al “que” galicado, creo que Juglar se deja llevar por la pasión. En literatura anterior al siglo XVIII es algo muy, muy raro, en cualquier periódico español no aparece prácticamente nunca, no hablemos de escritos de académicos. Los españoles no tienen por qué luchar contra el “que” galicado por el mismo motivo por el que los bogotanos educados no tienen que hacer esfuerzos especiales para no tragarse las últimas letras de cada palabra. El “que” galicado es un disparate exótico que en seguida atribuyen a los latinoamericanos, aun personas que no tienen conocimientos gramaticales. Eso no lo han oído nunca, y en cambio se encuentra con frecuencia en Borges.
Eso que decía del desarrollo del idioma como construcción del aparato lógico también sirve para explicar el leísmo: predomina en Castilla pero es minoritario en Andalucía y América porque alguna vez, en su origen, “le” era el acusativo de los humanos y “lo” de los objetos, no es una degeneración sino algo que se queda de la época en que la lengua estaba naciendo. Lo del “perfecto” (la forma compuesta del “perfecto”) es todavía más discutible. Creo que el Juglar se equivoca, pero no tengo forma de saberlo con certeza ahora. Sólo una serie de datos: tanto en italiano como en francés como en alemán, las formas compuestas quieren decir lo mismo que las formas simples de pasado (he dicho = dije), pero en inglés no, y las diferencias en inglés, hasta donde sé, son muy parecidas a las del español. Supongo que son rasgos del latín que adquieren unas lenguas y desechan otras, pero recuerdo a una muchacha argentina de una región que tenía poco contacto con el exterior y había tenido poca migración, que decía que los porteños usaban siempre la forma simple, mientras que ellos discriminaban. Y yo ya no sé qué es de lo que aprendí de niño y qué he adquirido leyendo, pero me suena que para cualquier colombiano sería claro que si un novelista cuenta que fulanito sale de la cárcel tras diez años de encierro y señala “A riesgo de su vida, nunca condescendió a las atroces prácticas que ofenden a la naturaleza y que son frecuentes en esos sitios” usa un lenguaje distinto al de un relato EN PRESENTE, que incluye el momento en que se habla, en el que el novelista dice de su personaje “Nunca ha permitido que su honra viril sea mancillada”. En el primer caso ese pasado es definitivo y en cierta medida con límites, mientras que en el segundo se alude a toda la vida. Que cada cual juzgue si esa diferencia me la invento yo. Tal vez últimamente se hace demasiado caso a los porteños, que hablan más italiano que español.
Claro que el ejemplo del Juglar era otro, el “has desayunado”: yo creo que eso es tradicional y reconocido por las autoridades. Lo que pasa es que hay grados de corrupción respecto de la norma (pongamos sólo lo hablado): no es lo mismo “darse cuenta que” que “se los dije” o “tráigamen”. De modo que la precisión sobre si se debe decir “desayunaste” o “has desayunado” ya entra en terrenos muy complicados.
(Ah, al que le interese la ortografía, algo que he visto mucho en los comentarios, la palabra “aun” sólo se acentúa cuando es intercambiable por “todavía”, cuando quiere decir “incluso” no se acentúa: “aun así”, “aun si”, etc.)
Saludos.
14 de November, 2005 - 21:07
Perdón por insistir: he hecho clic en la consulta de Soledad Moliner y me he encontrado esta perla: “A mí me sigue molestando la prescindencia de la preposición, aunque estoy segura de que es tolerada”. ¿Va uno a donde la experta para que le cuente sus suposiciones? Lo de “prescindencia” me sonó a jerga leguleya, y encontré esta definición en el diccionario de María Moliner: “(palabra recientemente aprobada por la R. A. para su inclusión en el D. R. A. E.; Hispam.). Acción de prescindir”. La autoridad supone cosas, y usa palabras inventadas por algún leguleyo. Sí, el idioma evoluciona, no cabe duda.
14 de November, 2005 - 21:52
Jaime:
Gracias por sus aportes.
Respecto al “perfecto” estoy seguro DE QUE es en todo caso influencia del francés en todos los idiomas que usted cita. En esos idiomas, incluso en francés, existen las formas de pertérito pero se les considera “anticuadas”. “Jaja, usted habla como en latín”, me dijo una vez un italiano.
La forma como se usa en español (que no es ni lo uno ni lo otro sino algo de lo que podría hacerse prescindencia perfectamente) me parece del todo caprichosa y acomodada, como cuando a mediados del siglo XX se impuso el “buen uso” del “ir a por”. Las gentes de españa -o de Madrid- son muy dadas a esas moditas play, como aquí nosotros los rolos.
14 de November, 2005 - 21:57
Jaime:
Según Esbozo de una nueva gramática de la lengua española (1985, página 204), los pronombres “le” en acusativo y “la” en dativo son considerados “no etimológicos”. Efectivamente en latín acustaivo es illum, illam y dativo illim. A mí me sigue sonando más la hipótesis de la modita play, que seguro igual de “diferenciados” querían ser los castellanos de tiempos de Fernando el sabio.
14 de November, 2005 - 22:04
Juglar: sé con certeza que en francés y en alemán (en el sur de Alemania) se usan habitualmente las formas de perfecto, y si no se usan en español es porque quieren decir otra cosa. Es que usando el perfecto es mucho más fácil expresarse bien, sólo hay que aprender una conjugación, la de “haber” y los participios, que son casi siempre regulares.
Y la moda del perfecto parece vieja:
¡Qué descansada vida
la del que huye el mundanal ruido
y sigue la escondida
senda por donde han ido
los pocos sabios que en el mundo han sido!
(Fray Luis de León, siglo XVI).
14 de November, 2005 - 22:08
Juglar: eso de las formas etimológicas también es interesante, porque a España la fundaron gentes que no hablaban latín, los cántabros y astures eran parientes de los vascos y tendrían una lengua como ésa, los visigodos tenían su lengua, y los demás convivieron con los árabes. A lo mejor en árabe hay un pronombre para “nombre de macho humano” y otro para “nombre masculino de objeto”. Es decir, las formas etimológicas son las que van introduciendo los gramáticos, que sí recurren al latín, para perfeccionar una lengua que es viva y funciona. Lo que es seguro es que la gente no llega a decir “la dijo” por darse aires, sobre todo porque es un uso de campesinos y gente así.
14 de November, 2005 - 22:33
Jaime:
Perfecto: Pues en el siglo XVI lo hacían bien. No creo que el señor fraile haya querido decir que los pocos sabios “acaban de irse” o “acaban de ser”. Tampoco que se acabaron los sabios o que dejarán de ir por ese camino. El perfecto para los españoles tiene un aspecto que -como alguna vez le oí decir a uno de ellos- “perdimos” y es tan específico que sencillamente significa “lo que acabo de hacer” (un amigo alemán me dijo que se lo explicaron así “debes dejar de decir ‘he desayunado’ si ya fuiste al baño”) o sea, como usted lo hizo cuando dijo “he hecho clic en la consulta”. No lo perdimos, es que no estaba antes. De hecho tengo una prueba mejor: en Brasil no lo usan pero en Portugal sí.
Etimología: Ganas de joder: a España la “fundaron” en el siglo XVI, cuando ya hablaban algún español y no había astures ni cántabros. Los astures y los cántabros eran celtas, como los gallegos, o sea que más idiomas a la lista. Su suposición del pronombre para cosas y gente en árabe no parece darse en el árabe, al menos el actual (Gramática árabe de Corriente, Herder, 1988, pág. 101-127). Igual entiendo lo que quiere decir y todo lo anterior es casi que por joder.
Leísmo: puede ser esnobismo, puede ser ignorancia o puede ser esnobismo ignorante. Pero personalmente, como usted, me ensaño más con las moditas play que con el lenguaje “bajo”.
14 de November, 2005 - 23:36
Hola. Leí atentamente la entrada y la discusión y me gustaría opinar.
Me causan mucha gracia las discusiones lingüísticas que incluyen palabras como “horror”, “crimen”, “pecado”, “barbarismo”, “vicio” y “resignadamente”. Si los que usan esas expresiones pudieran ver lo inevitable del cambio lingüístico, serían más felices y vivirían menos horrorizados.
Me confunde la postura de Miguel. Por un lado creo entender que sostiene que decir “estoy seguro que” le parece un “crimen” (sic). Por otro lado, en uno de sus comentarios finales afirma “que viva la diversidad en el idioma” y “qué pereza tener un español hegemónico”. Lo que no me queda muy claro es cómo pueden convivir el deseo de una gramática estrictamente determinada por reglas inviolables y el deseo de una lengua española heterogenea y diversa.
En cuanto al tema las reglas de una gramática, es absurdo pensar que puedan ser fijadas independientemente de su uso. Es ridículo pretender que un grupo de académicos fije las reglas de una lengua. Por lo menos el 95% de las lenguas del mundo no tienen ninguna academia reguladora y no por eso son menos efectivas para la comunicación de sus hablantes. Las reglas de la gramática emergen del uso de la lengua. Lo único que debería hacer la academia es registrar esos usos, que con su sola existencia deberían verse legitimados. Se trata también de una cuestión de frecuencia. Si dos estructuras sintácticas coexisten en una lengua, es probable que la más frecuente sea la que termine legitimándose. Es exactamente así como funciona el cambio lingüístico. Ninguna lengua cambia o deja de cambiar por lo que decida un grupo de señores en un cómodo salón de Madrid.
Pongamos un ejemplo. Tomémoslo – para ser clásicos – de los primeros dos versos del Poema del Cid:
“De los sos ojos tan fuerte mientre lorando
tornava la cabeça y estava los catando”
que podrían “traducirse” al español moderno a grandes rasgos así:
“Con sus ojos muy fuertemente llorando,
tornaba la cabeza y estaba mirándolos”
Me interesa la construcción “los sos ojos”. Esta forma era perfectamente legal, “correcta” y admitida en la época en que algún copista en algún monasterio decidió poner por escrito el Poema del Cid, allá por el siglo XII. Es una historia larga que no contaré, pero basta saber que el latín no tenía artículos y que éstos fueron “agregados” al español antiguo (tomándose de formas latinas de demostrativo). La cuestión es que para el siglo XII, se habían incorporado los artículos (el/la/los/las) y se usaban en combinación con los posesivos (mi/mis, su/sus, etc), como se ve en “los sos ojos”. Así, debía decirse “la mi boca”, “los tus pies”, “el nuestro perro”, etc. Esa era la regla: artículo definido + posesivo + sustantivo. Ahora bien, en algún momento, y por alguna razón, algunos hablantes comenzaron a olvidarse de poner el artículo cuando estaba el posesivo. Así que durante varios años, formas como “con los sus ojos” y “con sus ojos” coexistieron en la forma de hablar de los castellanos. Si hubieran existido entonces los weblogs, seguramente alguien habría posteado sobre el horror que le producía la frase “con sus ojos”, sobre el crimen de olvidarse de poner el artículo “los”, etc. La cuestión es que ambas formas coexistían, así como ahora coexisten “estoy seguro de que” con “estoy seguro que”, hasta que una de las dos se impuso y se convirtió en regla, al punto en que ahora, en el español actual, decir “los sus ojos” es considerado agramatical. La forma sin artículo, que habrá horrorizado a más de uno en su momento, terminó convirtiéndose en norma. Todo cambio lingüístico supone un período en el que las formas innovadoras conviven con las formas establecidas. Es difícil predecir la dirección del cambio y son muy complejas las razones por las que una forma se impone sobre otra (tienen que ver con la frecuencia de uso, el prestigio de los hablantes que la adoptan, las modas, etc.) Tal vez dentro de cien años, el “seguro que” se haya impuesto sobre el “seguro de que”; o tal vez no, tal vez el “seguro que” desaparezca y se consolide el otro. No se sabe, y –lo más importante– poco se puede hacer para forzar uno u otro proceso. Así que, señores puristas, relájense. Está fuera de sus cultas manos.
Para terminar, un comentario sobre los ejemplos que Miguel considera una buena justificación de la importancia de distinguir “seguro” de “seguro de”:
-Está seguro.
-¿De qué?
-De que Cervantes se equivocó.
-Está seguro.
-¿Qué?
-El carro. Ya le puse llave.
No se me ocurre ninguna situación de la vida real donde una frase como “está seguro” con el sentido de ‘tener la certeza de X’, pueda confundirse con la frase “está seguro” con el sentido de ‘estar fuera de peligro’. El contexto de uso siempre dejará claro el sentido con el que usamos la frase. Un diálogo como éste es impensable:
- Creo que Juan está enfermo y preocupado.
- ¿Estás seguro?
- ¿Qué? (en lugar de “¿De qué?)
Es decir, estoy segura de que quien dice “estoy seguro que” nunca preguntaría “¿qué?” en ese contexto.
Por otra parte, todos sabemos que las lenguas toleran sin problema cierto grado de ambigüedad. Así por ejemplo, yo puedo decir “Juan está en el banco” y nadie sabe si me refiero a un banco de plaza o a una institución financiera. Y sin embargo, a ningún purista se le ocurre afirmar que hay que buscar otra palabra para referirse al Banco Santander, o cambiarle el nombre a los asientos del Parque Simón Bolívar.
Perdón por lo extenso. Espero que se hayan entendido mis argumentos, que resumo aquí:
- Las lenguas cambian siempre.
- El cambio lingüístico implica la coexistencia de formas consideradas correctas con formas innovadoras consideradas incorrectas (y hasta “horrorosas”).
- Aunque los organismos de control se esfuercen, es muy difícil orientar la dirección de un cambio.
- La ambigüedad entre dos formas no es tan grave y pocas veces da lugar a confusiones.
- Si no se toleraran los cambios y triunfara el intento por imponer reglas inviolables, no existiría la “diversidad en el idioma” que Miguel celebra.
15 de November, 2005 - 00:48
Mer:
Gracias por su comentario.
La ambigüedad semántica es una cosa y de eso no he hablado aquí. No sé si alguien ha protestado por la polisemania de la palabra “banco”. En fin, celebro la diversidad semántica.
El ejemplo del Cid es interesante porque un buen día llegó a suprimirse el uso de TODOS los artículos en ese tipo de construcción y no el del plural solamente -o caprichosamente- por ejemplo. Pero comerse palabras porque suena feo, como en el “seguro que”, es otra cosa, es gobernar con errores, es como tolerar ciertos crímenes porque es mejor “dejar así”. En realidad el tema del “seguro que” no es tan molesto como otros vicios y moditas play. A lo mejor en mil años deja de haber preposiciones en español porque dejó de ser play usarlas.
En fin, lo que digo en el segundo párrafo del post es lo más importante, es lo de las autoridades a las que se les muestra como ejemplo. Esas mismas autoridades contemporáneas (tv y radio, políticos, académicos, futbolistas) dicen “exenario”. Pronunciar así la palabra escenario no tiene ninguna explicación fonética “natural” como sí la tiene decir *fugo (por jugo) u *oxión (por opción) o *tapsi (por taxi), por ejemplo. Tal vez el que comenzó todo era disléxico y leyó ecsenario. Pero hoy todo bien decir exenario y qué boleta decir oxionado.
A todo eso nos resignamos algunos, como a otros les habrá tocado resignarse a que vaya y valla se pronuncien igual (mi papá pronuncia la ll diferente a la y, por ejemplo).
15 de November, 2005 - 04:50
“El ejemplo del Cid es interesante porque un buen día llegó a suprimirse el uso de TODOS los artículos en ese tipo de construcción y no el del plural solamente -o caprichosamente- por ejemplo.”
Yo apostaria que fue un proceso bastante lento y durante el cual hubo montones de “inconsistencias” que habrian sacado de quizio a los juglares del zipa de la epoca.
15 de November, 2005 - 07:52
1. Creo que se dice quicio.
2. Una inconsistencia fácil pero ilustradora es que “de el” se volvió “del”, “a el” se volvió “al” y, en cambio, “que el” nada que se vuelve “quel”. Rarísimo eso de que las reglas a veces no funcionen y a veces sí, ¿no?
3. Por otro lado, creo que la historia tumbará cualquier intención de Miguel et al. de detener el proceso de aceptación universal del horrorífico “estoy seguro que”. Una prueba de ello es que “Estoy seguro que” suelta 701.000 hits en google, mientras que “Estoy seguro de que” suelta 525.000 hits. Sí, yo sé que los que escriben en internet son todos unos incultos e ignorantes. Sí, yo se que el hecho de que la mayoría esté de acuerdo no lo hace correcto -el caso de Alvaro “el predestinado” Uribe es un buen ejemplo-, pero creo que cuando la cosa viene al uso y desuso del lenguaje, no hay otra opción sino atenerse resignadamente al mandato de la legión. Igual es interesante que sea dificil encontrar otro gazapo que le gane tan atronadoramente a su versión “correcta”. Cualquiera que vea eso dirá que que ambas formas coexisten amistosamente y tal vez, sólo tal vez, una esté llevandose por delante a la otra. Terrible eso, ¿no?. Yo intenté un rato y no lo logré. Ahí le dejo el reto, Miguel, pa’que se entretenga.
15 de November, 2005 - 09:04
Pero el punto es que NO fue que UN BUEN DÍA se suprimieron TODOS los artículos. Sino que durante un largo tiempo, habría gente que suprimía algunos y gente que no, habría gente que “se comía los artículos” porque sonaban feos y otros que no. Y finalmente el cambio se fue extendiendo, hasta que poner los artículos se volvió “ilegal”.
En cuanto a la diversidad semántica, debe ser que yo no entendí algo. ¿Qué pretendías ilustrar con esos dos diálogos que comienzan por “está seguro”?
Y ahora una pregunta: ¿por qué decir “exenario” en lugar de “esenario” no tienen ninguna explicación natural y estaría “peor” que decir fugo, oxión o tapsi? No entiendo por qué hacés esta distinción y me gustaría que lo explicaras.
Finalmente, el ejemplo que das de “valla” y “vaya” es un buen ejemplo como para ilustrar lo que yo quiero ilustrar. ¿¿Por qué vos aceptás el cambio de “ll” a “i” y no aceptás el cambio de “seguro de que” a “seguro que”?? ¿Qué es lo que hace que violar una regla en determinado rasgo lingüístico sea más grave (más criminal) que en otros?
15 de November, 2005 - 09:13
Mer es mi idolo :P
15 de November, 2005 - 12:51
Juglar: eso del uso del perfecto así es bien complicado, lo miraré. A España la fundaron en el siglo XV, pero yo me refería al castellano. Respecto al uso de “le”, el origen árabe era una suposición ligera, podría ser también perfectamente una tendencia de los gramáticos, inclinados por motivos religiosos a imponer en el lenguaje una diferencia entre los hombres y las cosas. No lo sé, sólo que no es una moda frívola.
Con respecto al comentario de Mer, ya da rabia responder a lo mismo. Tómese la lengua como una tecnología, tal vez sea una definición acertada pero no necesariamente un criterio extrapolable más allá de esa discusión. En tiempos del Cid era “correcto” llevar las cargas en una carreta con dos bueyes, hoy tenemos a mano instrumentos más precisos. También se puede decir que unos hombres que tienen que transportar un objeto de una tonelada entre cinco y sólo cuentan con un camión sin motor y una pista lisa, pueden efectuar el transporte en un camión sin motor. ¡Fuera los motores! Igualmente una comunidad campesina funciona si se dice “tráigamen”, no hay ningún problema, no va la Academia de la Lengua a descabezar a nadie. Pero si una lengua de 400 millones estuviera sometida a caprichos así, si no hubiera la noción del verbo “traer” y su conjugaciones y los enclíticos y demás, no habría modo de entenderse. No es que vayamos a saber cómo será la tecnología del futuro, pero la del presente deberíamos usarla correctamente.
Lo que yo no entiendo es por qué los detractores del “purismo” (¿qué es purismo? ¿quién es purista?) se toman tanto trabajo. Podrían publicar sus periódicos en lengua frívola, seguro que la policía no va a molestarlos. Porque la realidad es que los periódicos y libros y publicaciones de todo tipo respetan a rajatabla la gramática y se gastan un montón de plata en pagarle a individuos especializados en buscar los “de” que faltan antes de “que”. A mí esa clase de argumentos me dan especial rabia porque la lengua aparte de ser una tecnología para comunicarse también es una herramienta de trabajo, y si los colombianos entendieran que decir “se los dije” es un disparate, un absurdo lógico, tal vez habría miles o aun millones de puestos de trabajo que podrían ocupar. ¿Para qué? Perdón, es que me traiciona el subconsciente purista: ¿¿viyfge cdbnvbiuad?
Ese ejemplo de los periódicos y libros también va dirigido a Galactus respecto a sus cifras del google. También hubo un día en que sólo uno entre los humanos habló. Lo más seguro es que eso práctico y popular daría malas calificaciones en las escuelas, y para una rebelión de los espontáneos habría que ponerlo a él a escribirse con colombianos semianalfabetos a ver si valora o no la corrección idiomática.
Claro, los cambios vienen en las lenguas y es bien difícil saber cómo van a ser, como es difícil conocer el futuro, pero si esos cambios no fueran un continuo perfeccionamiento habría que crear que un día Dios nos habló en una lengua perfecta y desde entonces no hemos hecho más que degenerarla. Uf, me aburre.
15 de November, 2005 - 12:54
Habría que creer que un día Dios… Perdón.
15 de November, 2005 - 15:38
Y tanto escándalo por un de que, y eso que ustedes no viven en España, lugar donde reina a sus anchas, además de la dije, lo dije, salir para fuera y demás horrores.
15 de November, 2005 - 18:21
Señor Jaime Ruiz, si le da rabia ni se moleste en contestarme, porque yo tampoco me estoy muriendo de ganas de tener esta discusión. Y además, de hecho, su respuesta no contesta mis preguntas.
Entender el lenguaje como una tecnología que “evoluciona” implica asumir que en la antigüedad el lenguaje era menos eficiente y más precario que ahora (como sí puede decirse, para usar su ejemplo, de los medios disponibles para transportar una carga). Y eso es completamente ridículo. La lengua de cualquier sociedad en cualquier época es lo suficientemente eficiente y completa no sólo para la comunicación sino también para la creación literaria. (La única excepción a esto podrían ser las lenguas pidgin, pero no vienen al caso). Los españoles del Siglo de Oro estaban convencidos, igual que ustedes, de que el castellano había alcanzado la cúspide de la perfección. Pero el castellano siguió cambiando, como seguirá cambiando. Y sorprende que a estas alturas se siga creyendo que la lengua “se perfecciona”. La lengua no mejora ni empeora, simplemente cambia.
“¿Quién es purista?” Purista es quien califica de “horror” y “crimen” un error tan frecuente y tan intrascendente como el de “estar seguro que”.
Le pido una aclaración. ¿Por qué está mal decir “se los dije”? De verdad, no estoy viendo el error. Ej. Le dije insultos a Juan. Se los dije. ¿Está mal? Mire, si está mal debe ser que soy una ignorante y estuve ocupando puestos de trabajo inmerecidos hasta ahora. ¡Y me vengo a enterar acá!
Bueno, me voy ahora. Quedo a la espera de la respuesta del juglar acerca de:
(1) la diferencia entre decir “valla” como “vaya” y decir “seguro que” como “seguro de que”;
(2) la explicación “natural” que justifica decir “fugo” o “oxión” pero no justifica decir “exenario”.
Saludos.
15 de November, 2005 - 18:47
Para Mer: eso de que todas las lenguas son perfectas para su sociedad es verdaderamente un chiste. Un mal chiste. Si las lenguas no se perfeccionaran, habrá que pensar que un día aparecieron aptas para lo que hiciera falta. Mejor me callo mis opiniones sobre eso. Para usted será perfecto decir “se los dije”. ¿Qué necesidad va a tener de saber lo que vemos los puristas?
Si un pistolero me hubiera amenazado para que le diera los números de la caja fuerte, yo se los daría y después lo contaría “se los dije”. Si le digo una sola cosa a varias personas, esa cosa, expresada en en pronombre LO va en singular: se lo dije. Sobre eso he publicado un post en este blog.
15 de November, 2005 - 19:06
Muy bien. Y si digo “se los dije” en lugar de “se lo dije”… ¿qué? ¿cuál es el problema? ¿dónde está el crimen?
La explicación a por qué pasa eso es sencilla.
Pongamos un ejemplo:
Les conté el cuento a mis hermanos.
Forma “correcta”: Se lo conté.
Forma “criminal”: Se los conté.
¿Por qué pasa esto? Porque el pronombre “se” no tiene flexión de número. Entonces los hablantes, inconscientemente, intentan mantener la idea de pluralidad que contiene el concepto de “mis hermanos” y como no pueden marcar como [+plural] al “se”, le ponen la marca de pluralidad al “lo”.
Esto, en lugar de ser visto como un horror, podría -para seguir en su línea de pensamiento- como una forma que la lengua tiene para “perfeccionarse”. Si en la frase “se lo conté” se pierde la idea de pluralidad, pues digo “se los conté”. Todos me entienden. Nadie se confunde. Y no cometí ningún crimen.
Me alegra que se asuma como purista. Eso es lo que es. Yo, en cambio, soy lingüista.
15 de November, 2005 - 20:22
Uf: es exactamente el problema de “siéntesen”. También se remedia la falta de flexión de número de “se” poniendo una n. Todos entienden. Fuera de Colombia es posible que a quien hable así lo vean como retrasado mental, y en España le ocurriría al que dijera “se los dije”. Lo que quiero decir cuando hablo de que las lenguas se perfeccionan es que precisamente la gente aprende los conceptos gramaticales y los usa como fueron concebidos. Si usted va a una editorial seria y lleva un libro titulado “Se los advertimos”, es muy poco probable que se lo publiquen, pero ¿qué importa? A ver, ¿por qué habría que decir “qué importa”? Digo cualquier cosa, que al final yo me entiendo.
Vea: es como un resumen de Colombia. A una persona de habla inglesa la escandalizaría que alguien confundiera el singular con el plural, pero en Colombia compiten por ser los más desenfadados. “Sí, decimos ‘tatsi’, ¿y qué?”. ¿Usted es lingüista? ¿Tiene un título de lingüista? Es que Colombia es así, el titulado de artista sólo aprende que el arte es cualquier cosa y por eso hace una instalación, pone las gafas dentro de un vaso y lo llena hasta la mitad de Icopor. ¿Qué obra es ésa? ¿Es que acaso el artista no tiene su diploma?
No se moleste en contestarme.
15 de November, 2005 - 20:28
Sergio, yo estoy de acuerdo: MER también es mi héroe:P
15 de November, 2005 - 21:25
“la gente aprende los conceptos gramaticales y los usa como fueron concebidos”
¿quién los concibió?
En lingüística se estudian, entre otras cosas, los procesos de cambio de las lenguas. Se estudia como, por ejemplo, los cambios que se dieron en el latín tardío fueron conviritiéndose en lo que hablamos ahora. Y el estudio de esos cambios le permite a uno entender cómo no se trata de un proceso de perfeccionamiento, sino simplemente de cambio. Sin juicios de valor.
En colombia usan la palabra “pena” para denotar “vergüenza”. Eso es diferente del uso que la palabra “pena” tiene en otros lugares del mundo hispánico (como Argentina o España), donde denota trizteza. A mí jamás se me ocurriría pensar que eso es un “horror”, ni “qué barbaridad los colombianos no saben usar las palabras”. Jamás pediría que la Academia dictamine sobre el uso “correcto” de la palabra “pena”. A mí me divierte la diversidad, me gusta aprender las formas distintas de cada región, y no tengo miedo de que dejemos de entendernos. Si un amigo bogotano me dice “qué pena con usted” y yo no entiendo, le pregunto “¿cómo que “qué pena”?”, y él me explica y ya está. Fin del malentendido.
Me divierte contestarle, para qué lo voy a negar.
15 de November, 2005 - 21:28
PD. donde dice “se estudia como” debería decir “se estudia cómo”. My bad. Aclaro antes de que los puristas se escandalicen.
16 de November, 2005 - 02:29
Segun la logica de Jaime, uno podria ordenar las diferentes lenguas (espan~ol, frances, ingles, chino..) de la “mejor” a la “peor”. Buena suerte con eso.
16 de November, 2005 - 05:33
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16 de November, 2005 - 20:20
Para Galactus: en efecto, se podría ordenar las lenguas de la mejor a la peor, no le quepa la menor duda. Como se puede ordenar a las personas de la mejor a la peor. El único problema es ponerse de acuerdo respecto a qué. Juan Pablo Montoya es uno de los mejores hombres en aptitud al volante, pero tal vez en simpatía o en sindéresis no destacara.
Por ejemplo para sobrevivir en el Ártico y aun en el Antártico es probable que sirviera más la lengua de los inuits o esquimales. Figúrese que Heidegger le dijo a Víctor Farías que las lenguas latinas no eran muy apropiadas para el pensamiento filosófico, que por tanto eran inferiores a ese respecto que el alemán, cosa que decían otros prestigiados pensadores formados en esa lengua, como Fichte. También Borges se lamentaba con frecuencia de que el español no servía para expresar el pensamiento, cosa que lo hacía inferior, según él si bien tácitamente, al inglés. Yo no veo el problema.
Y respecto a su “héroe”, que es una dama, es gracioso que de no tener ganas de tener una discusión pase a confesar que le divierte contestarme. Lo malo es que todo lo incómodo lo rehúye, como la improbable creación divina del lenguaje: ¿cómo habrían llegado las lenguas a ser lo que son sin un proceso milenario de perfeccionamiento? Lo mismo vale para usted y la imposibilidad de ordenar las lenguas (respecto a lo cual no sólo hay que contestar a un “respecto a que”, sino también conocer a fondo las lenguas, razón por la que no puedo hacer esa clasificación). Si una lengua no es mejor que otra, el inglés moderno es igual que los gruñidos de la primera conversación, y también el quejido de un torturado sería igual que La canción de la tierra.
Y ya que Mer se divierte en contestarme, le explico que las lenguas no tienen un origen divino, las organizan y perfeccionan los literatos y gramáticos. Puede que en el siglo XVI se considerara que el castellano había llegado a su perfección, pero es que comparado con los cambios traumáticos que experimentó en su nacimiento es casi idéntico al que hablamos ahora. Las incorrecciones, muestra de escasa educación, de escaso conocimiento de la literatura y de escasa aptitud para expresarse y actualizarse, también se darían. Sólo que un escritor que transgrediera en exceso las convenciones, SALVO QUE LAS MEJORARA, no merecería ni entonces ni después mucha atención.
Esos procesos por los que se mejora la lengua, cuando atañen a criterios gramaticales, no sólo al léxico, suelen ser conscientes y deliberados, o bien asimilados de una masa hablante que los usa y organizados por alguien que entiende de gramática. Hoy en día, por ejemplo en lengua inglesa alguien que confundiera el singular con el plural no tendría un trabajo en el que le tocara hablar. Sólo en un muladar como Colombia la gente sale con su diploma y sus puestos importantes a presumir de que ya “sabe” que reformar la lengua sin conocerla, sólo porque no se lee ni se trata con personas informadas, está bien. No es un problema de la lengua sino de la sociedad: ¿para qué se estudia? Para tener el diploma y hablarles por encima del hombro a los demás, no importa que tanta sabiduría se aprendiera en diez minutos.
¿Y el silencio del juglar?
16 de November, 2005 - 23:07
Qué bueno que me explica que las lenguas no tienen un origen divino… y yo que me había creído lo de la torre de Babel.
Estamos de acuerdo en ese punto. Ninguna lengua tiene un origen divino. Los puntos en los que no coincidimos son los siguientes:
1. Usted piensa que las lenguas se “perfeccionan”. Yo pienso que las lenguas simplemente cambian, que tanto en su estado presente como en sus estados pasados eran perfectamente eficientes para la comunicación de sus hablantes. Claro que la primera tribu de hombres primitivos que hablaron habrá tenido un lenguaje más elemental. Pero hace muchos, muchos, pero muuuuchos siglos que existen lenguas con plenos poderes comunicativos y creativos. En cuanto a su ejemplo del grito del torturado, es absurdo, porque se trata de la misma lengua. Porque lo bueno de todas las lenguas, lo mejor que tienen, es que permiten tanto los gritos de un torturado, como las poesías de Octavio Paz, las discusiones de mis vecinas de enfrente, las Églogas de Garcilaso, o las más chabacanas letras de reguetón. Todo eso –y no sólo La canción de la tierra– conforma una lengua
2. Usted piensa que las lenguas son “perfeccionadas” por gramáticos y literatos. Yo pienso que las lenguas son cambiadas por los hablantes, inconscientemente, y pese a los intentos de las academias por frenar y desviar los cambios. Ahora bien, mi pregunta es: si las lenguas son “perfeccionadas” por los literatos… ¿por qué entonces no podemos tomar el “señal que cabalgamos” de Cervantes para avalar el “seguro que”? (para volver un poco al origen de esta discusión) ¿O será que no todos los literatos tienen el mismo derecho a perfeccionar la lengua? ¿Quién decide qué literatos sí y qué literatos no?
Usted habla de “los cambios traumáticos que sufrió el castellano en su nacimiento”. Y es ahí donde se equivoca. No ocurrió que un buen día “nació” el castellano. El surgimiento del castellano fue un proceso continuo, lo que hablamos hoy es el producto de todos los cambios que fueron ocurriendo en el latín de la Península Ibérica, muy de a poco, sin que en ningún momento sus hablantes tuvieran conciencia de que la lengua estuviera cambiando. Lo yo estoy tratando de explicar –con poco éxito– es que los cambios que fueron transformando al latín en el castellano actual fueron en algún momento pequeñas variaciones (como las que los horrorizan a ustedes, como “seguro que” o “se los dije”) que luego llegaron a consolidarse. No quiero sonar pedante, pero créame que estudié mucho este tema, incluso con los gramáticos que según usted son los encargados de “perfeccionar” la lengua. Créame que hablo con mucho conocimiento de causa.
En cuanto a su idea de que hay lenguas más perfectas que otras, me parece tan disparatada que no sé ni dónde empezar a argumentar en contra. Creo que sería una causa perdida. ¿De verdad usted piensa que los colombianos no pueden hablar de filosofía?
En fin, aquí le dejo una cita.
“From time immemorial people have been concerned about the fact that language changes and that languages become different as they change. The cause for such change has traditionally been attributed to divine intervention, as in the story of the Tower of Babel. Or it has been ascribed to slovenly, barbarous corruption of speech. In either case, change and diversification is considered highly undesirable, a fall from grace, as it were.
However, in spite of admonitions like “Therefore a brahmin should not speak like a barbarian”, all natural languages change inexorably. Thus, Sanskrit, the language of these brahmins, has over the millennia changed so much that in effect it has been replaced by newer and quite distinct forms of speech: the modern languages of North India. And the Hebrew now spoken in Israel is not a straight continuation of the ancient tongue in which the story of Babel has come down to us.
What is remarkable is that in spite of these changes, in spite of these “corruptions” and the continued “fall from grace”, language has not ceased to be intelligible. On the contrary, its current users can, if they choose to or try hard enough, manage to communicate as effectively as those who used the language at the time that those stories were composed.”
Hans Heinrich Hock, 1991. Principles of Historical Linguistics. Mouton de Gruyter: Berlín.
(Gracias a Eyder y a Sergio por los comentarios a favor) (¿El Juglar se aburrió? Juglar, avísenos si considera irrespetuoso que usemos su espacio para esta discusión)
17 de November, 2005 - 02:16
Jaime, es decir que el ingles, el frances y el chino pueden ser comparados de “peor” a “mejor” solo si se tiene en cuenta el contexto, y en cambio el espan~ol del siglo XIV y el espan~ol actual se pueden comparar con un criterio objetivo y absoluto? Absurdo.
Sergio
17 de November, 2005 - 05:38
Borges también hablaba en tono burlesco -como dije acá arribita- de la perfección de los idiomas al mencionar la anécdota de el rey que menciona el Zipa y el español como el lenguaje para hablar con Dios. Por lo demás, si realmente opinaba que el español no servía para escribir filosofía, fue muy inconsistente con sus ideas -y él pocas veces era inconsistente, reconoce Jaime-, porque la mayoría de sus escritos con contenido filosófico son en castellano aun cuando, todos sabemos, su manejo del inglés y alemán era comparable al de un hablante nativo.
Ficciones, ficciones, ficciones. Como ya le dije en otra discusión, a Borges le gustaba defender posiciones sin creer en ellas. Puro juego intelectual.
17 de November, 2005 - 08:56
Exacto. Más allá de lo que haya declarado, ¿qué mayor prueba que Borges para afirmar que el español es perfectamente adecuado para hablar de filosofía?
¿O será que solo el español de Argentina sirve para tan nobles propósitos? :P
17 de November, 2005 - 08:59
Tal vez el español rioplatense esté rankeado más alto en el ranking de lenguas perfectas. :P
17 de November, 2005 - 11:02
Cierto, Mer, sólo un poco por debajo del bogotano, que como todos sabemos, es el mejor y más neutro. :P
17 de November, 2005 - 12:38
Como la discusión sigue y resulta placentera para algunos y como el silencio del patrón del blog es bastante e-locuente, lo que haré será copiar las opiniones que siguen a la primera aparición de Mer en Gazapping y seguir contestando ahí. Si alguien tiene algo en contra, sólo tiene que explicarlo y se le complacerá según su derecho de propiedad intelectual.
17 de November, 2005 - 13:08
A mí me parece bien.
Sepan que hoy me voy de viaje, así que tal vez mis respuestas sean más esporádicas.
17 de November, 2005 - 14:14
Yo creía que la discusión no resultaba placentera para Jaime… vea usted.
18 de November, 2005 - 01:33
Mer es lo máximo. No hay duda. Que bueno que la exigieron tanto. Yo creo avisorar un error en uno de sus comentarios (que finalmente no afecta nada), por allí estuve investigando que el dichoso cervantes nunca escribió “señal que cabalgamos”, esto aparece en el guión de una película que orson welles nunca pudo hacer. No he investigado todavía si el guión era en español. Sería chistoso que fuera una traducción. Pero no estoy seguro, mis fuentes eran todas de la red, tan (poco) fiables como nosotros, ¿esto qué querrá decir? Mer, no te canses. Otros, no la agobien. Pero está muy chevere que la exijan.
18 de November, 2005 - 09:34
Que buena y elegante discusión, yo también me considero un apasionado de la defensa del buen hablar y coincido con el Juglar en que la gente suele tomar por ciertas algunas reglas que oyó alguna vez a alguin. Por eso es que vienen molestando, especialmente en Bogotá, con el asunto aquel de que las únicas que ponen son las gallinas lo que lleva a que la gente se “coloque nerviosa” y a otros atentados similares al idioma.
Por otra parte estoy de acuerdo con Mer en que los idiomas evolucionan y que es probable que coexistan durante épocas varias versiones de una misma expresión teniendo unas más fuerza que otras en diferentes ámbitos o culturas. Con el tiempo se impondrá una o la otra muy seguramente, pero mientras tanto considero que se debe ser consistente con el ámbito en el que uno de mueva: no porque coexistan el “voy por ellos” y el “voy a por ellos” puedo decir: “necesito mis papeles ‘voy a subir a por ellos’” en Bogotá y estar seguro de que me van a entender.
En resumen considero que uno debe hablar de acuerdo al ambiente en el que se mueva, a las circunstancias que lo rodean y las intenciones que persiga.
Muchos chistes no serían graciosos si los contáramos en español perfecto gramatical y fonéticamente hablando.
1 de December, 2005 - 03:41
Del comienzo de la discusión de eruditos, a su parte más debatida y de discusión más acalorada -buscando un par tener la razón-, llegando hastas los chistes finales me he divertido montones.
Aplausos para Mer. Sus argumentos desde el comienzo fueron claros. Muy de acuerdo. La lengua existe en su uso social y no en sus reglas puristas que jamás han sido fijas.
Que gracias, no se los dije antes.
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